No longer a solid or liquid, we have become as a vapor and will expand to fill all available space.

This morning the moon was big and beautiful and seemed caught in the bare tree.  I tried to take a picture and this is the best I could do.  It's not that good.  I felt okay about everything else and then had this conversation earlier and felt like, it should get a broader glance - more people might like these things that were said here.  So here:

Kingtycoon:

Punishment. That's today's topic here at work. I think that I strictly oppose punishment altogether.

Mordicai:

A not unreasonable thesis.

I do not but then, I also presume rational actors; outside of that my opinions change.

Kingtycoon:

Not to try and persuade you - but I think that the expiation of wrath that is within the doctrine of forgiveness is the essential component of Xtian theology - I think it's the best argument for that position.

Well, irrational actors- are you saying you're in favor of punishment or simply exclusion?

Mordicai:

Let's back up to axioms?

Kingtycoon:

Sure.

Mordicai:

Before I think about pragmatics.

So, my opinions on punishment stem from tit-for-tat, right?

Optimal Prisoner's Dilemma strategy, because I think it is the best & most basic model of cooperation, & relationships.

Kingtycoon:

See- I would say that tit-for-tat indicates conflict rather than punishment.

punishment has to come from an asymmetrical power relationship.

that's what I think.

Mordicai:

Interesting. Well, what do you call crime except defection?

Well, this is why I wanted to start at first principals.

Theoretically the asymmetry is between the individual & the collective?

Kingtycoon:

Axiomatically I think all crimes are broken into acts against property.

Mordicai:

& I am not entire opposed to collective power, though I think it requires checks & balances with the rule of law.

What about violence?

Kingtycoon:

Violence is a property crime against the other person in your kinband or collective.

your property...

Mordicai:

Let's try to sort out some clear cut cases by way of example, because for instance our justice system is so thoroughly fucked that right, I want to continue talking i theoreticals.

Kingtycoon:

Okay ,go.

Mordicai:

No I don't have a thesis. I think I disagree with the concept of property as defining.

I think the civil/criminal division & the treatment of violence over theft in the public eye preclude that as well.

Without even getting into a parallel society.

Kingtycoon:

It's not the most definsible position, but I do think it is the actual basis of our penal/legal codes.

Mordicai:

Sure but I want to talk a deeper theoretical.

Kingtycoon:

Violence is seen as extreme because it's the most aggressive theft- if you murder someone - you take them from me, and you don't even get them.

See, there's a taking - that's the essential element of crime, unwanted taking.

Mordicai:

I think you are right on a lot of levels-- the law code being decended from European feudalism will do that-- & that even Hammurabi bends that way.

See & I would say:

the reason to oppose murder is collective good; I don't want to be murdered, so punishing murder is a good idea.

Kingtycoon:

It's a very significant element of the law. The other part being the enforcement of conformity.

Mordicai:

Also, punishment WORKS, psychologically. Not the way it is used in the real world, on children & prisoners (redundant!) but on a raw, Pavlovian level.

Kingtycoon:

So you're agreeing that the reason people don't murder is the threat of punishment.

Mordicai:

You keep talking about the law.

No I am not agreeing

Kingtycoon:

Whereas, I think that even in wartime, people have to be coerced into murdering their enemies.

Mordicai:

You keep wanting to jump into reality & I keep telling you we aren't near that point.

Kingtycoon:

Okay - so my thesis is that there's an amount of competitive theft/hostility/criminality to people.

But without proper nurturing it won't develop into criminal behavior.

Mordicai:

I am not sure all three of those belong together.

Kingtycoon:

is that theoretical and axiomatic?

Mordicai:

I am also very skeptical of the "dark triad" too.

That is theoretical, now you are on a good line.

Kingtycoon: Okay - so punishment - the very act of it - is an institutionally approved method of performing those criminalized actions - correct?

the liturgical act of violence/crime

Mordicai:

well okay now we're wrapping around to something you expressed earlier-- which is the difference of exclusion & punishment-- but I want to sidestep that a little while longer.

& say that going back to the optimal play strategy-- I don't care about making any relationship sacred.

Which is to say, violence isn't bad because of morals or axioms, violence is bad because it is irrational & not optimal play strategy.

tit-for-tat is.

You will note however that Forgiveness is also optimal play.

But the crux of the issue is in symmetry.

Which goes to what you were saying about asymmetry.

Kingtycoon:

Okay - well - so I have to point out where the Prisoner's Dilemma falls apart in the consideration of crime/violence here -

Because, and I usually agree with you, but it assumes that people are playing a common game - and that can't be assumed all the time.

You could be playing WoD and it'd fall apart if I bring in my level 20 druid dig?

actually - that's a pointless diversion, but I think you have to concede that the game only works if we're actually both playing the same game.

Mordicai:

Correct. This is actually the very very very root of what I'm getting at in fact.

Which is: punishment & reward to create compliance.

Kingtycoon:

So you think that criminality comes from people playing asymmetric games.

playing from the different set of rules and you use punishment to enforce a preference.

So now, I want to think about Reward- because we seem to live in a world devoid of carrots but replete with sticks

Mordicai:

Agreed!

Anyhow, I think my point is more that I don't need a special category for crime. Crime is behavior to discourage.

Rationally this takes the form of defection

but-- actually, your Crafter church has a good idea.

Error.

A lot of crime is, I think, not rational.

Kingtycoon:

Oh yeah, sure.

So it occurs to me here - that there is, here in the states, this popular dichotomy between Big Gov't and big Business - and if you're a conservative, you probably don't mind BB - but oppose BG

and it occurs to me that businesses - they work by carrots,

rewards.

you get paid, you can buy what you want, there's a system of rewards.

but Gov't works by punishments.

You can pay a fine, you can go to jail, pay taxes.

Now- there's an unseen portion of this though - where the gov't kind of seamlessly & secretly rewards you, and businesses kind of secretly punish you.

Mordicai:

Ohhhh now I like this

it occurs to me that you are right.

This is my mildly pleased and sort of surprised face - the one I make when it turns out that mordicai agrees with me in an unreserved way.